FAQs: dangerous tools in the library

I’ve been asked how my library (that I left in late 2013) handled dangerous tools such as soldering irons in our library makerspace. Here is how I’ve answered these questions:

As a small library we were often able to accommodate fairly dangerous activities safely that larger libraries might worry about, including soldering. We do have a liability release form, which we adapted from existing makerspace forms (one is here, adapt as you like but vet with your legal counsel).

What about kids and dangerous tools?
We never had more than five kids soldering at one time and often had two adults overseeing them. But sometimes adults were not closely supervising individuals, but let me explain how this worked:

We held several soldering workshops in which people of all ages (but mostly kids) learned to solder LED pins, printed circuit board kits such as the Octolively, and robot kits. We followed the “learn one, do one, teach one” model, in which each person “certified” to use the soldering tools on their own had to learn from us, demonstrate good skills and safety in a later interaction, then teach someone else how to do the task safely and well. At that point we used our best judgement to allow people to use the tools in a traditional makerspace manner–i.e. whenever they wanted to. Still, if the solderers were kids that we were concerned about being distracted, we would keep a close eye on them as they worked with the tools.

Our rules were:

1. MOST IMPORTANT: Always treat the soldering iron as if it is hot. At 475 degrees you’ll burn anything you touch, so it’s critical, even if you JUST saw someone taking the iron out of its box and plugging it in, to treat it as if it is at full temp. No waving it around. Always return the iron to its stand immediately.
2. Keep the mat under your work. We bought mats that one can iron clothes on, to prevent an accidental “set down” of an iron from melting or burning the table. (Before that we’d had one kid get distracted and set the iron on the cardboard she had under her  project. Since we were watching closely, it barely touched the cardboard before we told her to pick it up, but this made us aware that even with supervision, accidents happen.)
3. Use the helping hands. These are little metal stands that have clips on them to hold whatever you’re soldering.
4. Keep your grip far back on the solder. (i.e. don’t hold it so close to the part that’s being melted that heat travels up and burns your fingers, causing you to drop everything in alarm–this never happened)

5. Learn to fix your own mistakes, but make sure you tell someone when you’ve made one. (We helped extra with mistakes because it seems like it is easier to do stupid stuff with the soldering iron when frustrated.)

Did you have any incidents or problems?
The slight charring of cardboard is the only incident we ever had, and it happened only once. That said, these were good, responsible kids (and adults) who listened to directions, took our authority seriously, and WANTED to be able to continue using the tools. We told them that if there were an incident, it was likely the tools would go away forever. So, keep that in mind. I’ve had other batches of kids (and adults) who I’d never trust with soldering irons unless we were one on one. And even then, I’d worry. USE YOUR JUDGEMENT–KNOW YOUR PATRONS.

soldering hands

Did you hire expert teachers?
I was the “expert” and had never soldered before in my life. I learned via the fabulous Ladyada, Limor Fried, practiced a few times, then taught. No problem. I had another volunteer “teacher” in exactly the same position. She and I did great, and I think it made a great impression on the girls and women in the audience that we had just learned and were already pretty good, and we were female. I now teach classes on this and have taught a hundred or so librarians to solder! (if your library system wants a program on makerspaces, I’d be happy to consider it–I’ve done it for several systems so far)

Anyway, we did have expert volunteers for other stuff, such as robotics, and circuit bending, but usually I learned it, then taught it. For me, there are a lot of power/pedagogical reasons to be just ahead of the kids when teaching, and letting them surpass you is great. As I noted before, often the kids took over some of the teaching (part of our learn one, do one, teach one model) and our best soldering & 3D printing teacher was actually just shy of his 12th birthday.

Should I be concerned about kids using dangerous tools? What age limits should we consider?
Yes, you should be very concerned about kids using soldering irons. We had kids age 11+. Again, these were calm, responsible kids. I knew them, at least by name–I was not the teen librarian. I would have a great deal of concern about a rowdy group, one that “shows off” a lot when in groups, or kids I didn’t know at all to be fairly laid back. If you have kind of wild kids, I would highly suggest getting a 1:1 ratio of volunteers to eagle eye every move during the initial training period. And give kids plenty of elbow room so they don’t burn someone whilst gesticulating with soldering iron in hand!

Younger kids also soldered during our maker faire type of event, but only with their parents right there.

Where did you use soldering irons, and what about the fumes?
We soldered in both a small classroom and in the library proper. I was not concerned about the fumes, because we had good ventilation naturally circulating, but if you are concerned, see my post on 3D printing and air quality here.

I feel like the very limited time that people will be soldering, the large scale of most libraries, and the frankly small level of fumes being spewed out by the solder probably make this a non-issue for libraries. Now, if you’re doing intensive work over hours and/or have a small space with poor ventilation, that may be another story.I am not an expert on this, and your mileage may vary.

What other dangerous tools could people use?
Exacto knives are particularly terrifying, moreso than soldering irons, because people don’t respect their danger.
Dremel tool, hammer, scissors, paper guillotine (honestly, we never let this out in the makerspace area!), PVC pipe ratchet cutter, boiling water, oven and stove, knives, garlic crushers…
books, ideas, pen (being mightier than sword) and so on.

Any further questions? Check out my other FAQs, email me, or comment here. I also do workshops on all these tools and makerspaces in general.

FAQs: Advice on makerspaces in libraries

1. How did you determine that you wanted to offer Maker programs/space in your library?
Really, just like most people I’ve spoken with, it was just an obvious step forward for me, so it’s difficult to pinpoint how I decided to do this. The first time I heard about a 3Dprinter several years ago, I tried to get my then-boss to allow to me write a grant for it, and failed. As soon as I became a director, I started moving forward with a makerspace, first the easy steps of adding a digital media lab, then a 3D printer and other tools. I’ve always (for the last 15 years) offered maker-type programming and it wasn’t so different to add open access to tools of production for a variety of ways to create. I am a maker and had talked with many others, hosted a “maker fair,” hackathon, and tried a Maker Camp before entirely committing to full-on “makerspace” services though–it makes no sense to add stuff your community won’t want.

2. Who initiated the project and how many staff members did you have on your implementation team?
It was just me. In a tiny library in a town of fewer than 2500, it is often just one person who does everything, and in this case, I took the makerspace project on alone as the director. I did work with a local maker group somewhat, when compiling a wishlist of equipment, and they did programs for the library.

Unfortunately, since the only person who really worked with the makerspace stuff aside from me was my VERY-part-time teen library assistant, when I left a couple of months ago, no one really had a sense of what to do next. I’d taught them how to use the equipment and thought I’d done a good job of presenting the “why,” but now only the teen librarian is furthering the use of the space, I think. The new director is interested but I think it’s largely unpromoted right now until I can train her in use of the stuff.

3. Please describe the space you use for your Maker programming. If it is a dedicated space, what is it called?
We have a pop-up space, which means that the equipment is on a cart and shelves in the library, and those who are “signed off” on various tools can use them as they wish. So people will come in and use the 3d printer connected to a computer that’s in the computer lab area, or use electrical or robotics equipment or music-mixing stuff on one of the tables in the main library space, in a very small study room, or in the program room. It doesn’t really have a name, just ‘the makerspace stuff.’ we offer digital tools of all kinds, Arduino and Raspberry Pis, a Printrbot, soldering irons, electronics equipment, robotics kits, Technic legos, jewelry making supplies, knitting tools, a pasta machine, Dremel tool and other hand tools, and all kinds of other stuff. We’re working on adding a laser cutter and more advanced robotics tools, which would be shared with other libraries in a roving makermobile.

4. What types of programs do you offer?
Everything from cooking to coding to chainmail. I interpret makerspaces as “any participatory creative space that is open for the free use of all library patrons to interact with at will, irrespective of the types of workshops, tools, staffing, materials created, or location.” This means that knitting and soldering are equally welcome and supported in the makerspace. Cooking is actually the most popular program–we don’t just demo, but people of all ages come together to make food and eat it, often some type of ethnic food such as Ethiopian or Thai.

5. Is your space open to the public when you don’t have programs?
Yes, it’s open. People need to be signed off, meaning that they or their parent/guardian have signed a form saying they understand the dangers of the space and won’t sue us if they burn themselves or whatever. Then for each “dangerous” tool, they are taught how to use the item, watched as they use it, and teach someone else how to use it. Thus learn it, do it, teach it model works well for ensuring that the very limited staff doesn’t have to be on hand for every use of the tools. But we do keep a sharp eye on kids using everything to ensure nothing stupid occurs. And we often must, due to this limited staff situation, ask people to wait to learn how to use the tools until either a program is offered or another maker can teach them.

6. Do you have external partnership/sponsorships?
Yes, at least we were granted some start-up funds from Alliant Energy Foundation and the Ezra Jack Keats Foundation, and are hoping for an LSTA grant. We partnered with the local Maker Meetup group at the start as well, though that partnership has waned since I left. New partnerships with other libraries, the schools, the local historical society, and senior centers were in the works when I left.

7. Any other quotes/stories/advice you’d like to share with other organizations considering making the leap?
This advice is based not just on my experience, but my interviews with librarians and patrons:

The first advice I have is theoretical.I encourage librarians to really think of what libraries are and do, what the role of the librarian actually is. I think–and nearly everyone I’ve interviewed thinks–that offering access to tools is no different from offering access to other materials. It is all about supporting people’s ability to pursue knowledge. The types of tools stems from the types of knowledge your community might want.

The second bit of advice is practical, but stems from the theoretical. Once you’ve decided to embrace access to knowledge as a goal do two things: 1. Talk to everyone outside the library to find out what they’re making or would like to make. Dismiss nothing as unlibrary-like if you think it supports your mission. If patrons want to make nail art, buy an LED light for curing nail polish; if they want to weave, buy a table loom. Find the community first, then offer the tools. 2. But be ahead of what they think to ask for, just as in collection development, where you purchase not only the bestsellers, but oddments that need to be handsold to particular patrons. So a 3D printer (or whatever) may be the best way to market library innovation and catch the attention of the patrons, even if it’s not the tool that makers actually want or need. It will be used, and often you can’t buy a marketing campaign for the $600 it costs for a Printrbot Jr. Put this printer or other cool tool on the checkout counter where people can’t miss it.

The third bit of advice, and the most important, is to consider your role. The librarian’s role is key to the success of a makerspace. If the librarian isn’t connecting people to stuff they may have never expected to find at libraries, the makerspace may not succeed.

Any further questions? Check out my other FAQs, email me, or comment here. I also do workshops on all these tools and makerspaces in general.

FAQs: 3D printers in the library

I am regularly asked about 3d printers and makerspaces in libraries, enough that I think it might be useful to collect all the information I have in one place. So, here are the answers I’ve given to the buckets of questions I’ve received, all based on my own experience, and the information garnered from my research on library makerspaces:

Which printer?
I LOVE my Printrbot Jr v2. It’s easy to build–and BUILD IT even if you know nothing about electronics or machinery, because otherwise it will be hard to fix–and easy to use, with excellent prints. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Cost is $599 for a kit.

DON’T buy the Makerbot, in my opinion. For a variety of reasons, including, most importantly:
1. It’s no better than the printrbots really, and you could buy 3 printrbot jr machines for far less than the cost of 1 makerbot and always (presumably) have one working. Makerbot print quality doesn’t look much better, and it breaks just as often, from what I’ve been told.
2. Makerbot is sort of the evil empire of 3D printing. They took opensource hardware, which has an ethical code to return any innovations to the opensource community, and closed it, sold out to a huge patent-hogging company, made money. This is not playing nicely with others. And open-source fits better with the library ethos of access. Of course, this is my opinion, and you can do as you wish!
4. It IS very easy to use. Just not that much easier than other printers.

So, I ‘ve hear that any of these opensource machines (get kits when possible) are also good:
Bukobot or Bukibot
Printrbot Simple. or Plus

or these pricier, sometimes closed source, models:
Type A Machines series 1
LulzBot TAZ (awesome–I want one!)
Felix 2.0

How do you use the 3d printer?
We use it similarly to our copier/printer–it’s openly available for anyone to use, as long as they have been trained in its use. We also had programs to teach people to use the printer.

How do you train people to use it?
Learn one, do one, teach one. This is a traditional training method. I was working on a sort of badge-card when I left the library, in which people who had a permission/liability release form signed got a card. Then when they were trained, they would get a sticker; when they made something with a piece of equipment, they get a sticker; when they taught someone else to safely use the equipment, they get their final sticker. At that point, they’d be free to use that equipment more or less unsupervised–OBVIOUSLY subject to the best judgement of the library staff (I’ll post on “dangerous” tech such as soldering irons soon). I am not sure if that card system was implemented, but it should work fine. (We were just posting notes on the permission form and in the patron’s computer record, which was tedious.)

What were the policies around using the 3d printer?
Anyone who was trained as above was free to use it. I started to require people to allow me to be the one to change filament or fix jams, because sometimes, even with training, people didn’t really know what they were doing. It was a first-come, first-served service. You had to wait with the printer while the print was ongoing. I spoke with several librarians in my research on what they’d “allow” to be printed. Here’s a quote from my article (in review):

A librarian with a long-running makerspace noted a strong material connection between 3D printing technology and intellectual freedom. He said that one of the early users of his library’s 3D printer built a model of a grenade, leaving him to wonder, “Do I need to write a policy saying they can’t make certain kinds of things?” He decided that the answer was emphatically “No,” and that intellectual freedom means the freedom to create anything. If users were comfortable sitting next to the printer for the six hours required to print a sex toy, he was not going to stop them.

I believe this is absolutely the correct stance to take. Anyone censoring what is created better be ready for a intellectual freedom challenge!

What did you charge for printing?
Nothing.We also didn’t charge for paper printing. We asked people to donate, and came out more than even that way.

What did it cost to run?
Not much. A 2 kg spool of filament costs around $35 and lasted us 4 months or so. It’s not a big cost. The thing to keep in mind is that print times are long, so even with the printer being used a lot, only so much filament can be used per minute. It won’t break your bank.

Where do you put it?
A printrbot jr only takes up about 24 square inches of space. We put ours on the front counter at first, to capture people’s attention as they were checking out materials. Then we put it on a table in the computer lab area. Be aware that the extruder gets hot. If you are concerned about someone touching it, put it where they can’t–but they’d have to actively try to burn themselves, as the printrbot has an insulated sleeve mostly covering the hot parts. We never had a problem; I’ve never been burned even when working on the hot-end. Still, in the interest of not getting sued, you may choose to place it in a safe location. Just make sure it’s visible, because crowds of people will want to watch it.

What about small libraries? Is a 3d printer a big draw?
My community was pop. 2340. It was not the AMAZING draw I’d hoped, but was very, very good. Too many people in that town didn’t know what a 3D printer was to get excited about one. However, when they came in and saw all the stuff we had, then they were intrigued.

Will the 3d printer be “abused” by kids wanting to print toys?
I had kids printing iphone cases and animals over and over, but I didn’t see it as abuse, I saw it as them doing what the stuff was there to do.

Does having a 3d printer take a lot of staff time? Time to print? Lot of maintenance?
It will take a lot of time. Sometimes. These are not consumer electronics yet. They break and there are no repair people. You are the repair person. I recommend buying a kit and making the printer. Even a complete electronics idiot can do this, I know, because I did it. I highly recommend the Printrbot Jr. I have my own, and that’s what I bought for the library. Excellent machine, easy to fix once you’ve built it. If you leave the printer out for anyone to use, you will find that some yahoos tinker with it, unscrewing things, or messing with the filament. If I were you, I’d make up a rule saying hands off. Let the librarians change filament, etc.–which very rarely needs to be done. Then, if you see someone has the expertise to take care of it, make an exception for them, consider them a printer pro or whatever.

Print times are lengthy. To print an iphone case can take an hour or so. Make people stay by the printer for the whole print, not just leave and pick it up later. You’re not a Kinkos, and people need to do the job themselves (in my opinion, and that of several others I’ve spoken to).

Anyway, I was only a librarian 15-25 hours a week because I’m working on my PhD full time, and was the only person to really deal with the printer. I had no problems keeping up. Some days I told people the printer was not available because I needed to clear a jam or something (which has never happened with my own v2 printrbot, by the way, only with the library’s v1)

Do you have one computer hooked up to the 3d printer? Is it wireless?
We had one computer hooked up, but were working on getting it hooked to a Raspberry Pi computer ($40) and running it over the web via Octoprint. I still haven’t done this for my own computer because I’ve gotten so good as using the Repetier/Slicer programs and hate to relearn everything. But if I were you, I’d go straight to the Raspberry Pi/Octoprint setup. Then anyone can log onto the Octoprint site online, and send their print job to your Pi’s IP address. Easy.

Do you need a program to design what you’re going to print?
I use Openscad. Also have available Sketchup and 123D Catch, and Blender. Openscad is a pain to learn, so find some kid to teach you how to use it and spend some time playing.

Do you need to be tech savvy or know about this stuff beforehand?
No. I knew nothing, and learned along the way. Just be OK with confusion and the scientific method. Write everything you try down. I built my printer, have fixed printers, and had absolutely NO machinery skills beforehand. It’s really not hard. But then my personality is comfortable with learning by doing, and is used to befuddlement. You may be different. Try connecting with your local makers–even if you think there are none around. Check Maker Meetup or any local robotics clubs, hardware stores or Radio Shack. They will often help you out. One of the library’s best teachers was 11 years old.

Where do you get filament?
I get my filament on ebay–cheap! Check this list for further suppliers, but don’t buy too much in advance–I think filament can “go bad” though I haven’t seen it happen.

What about the emissions of the melted filament?
See this post for more on this issue.

Do we really need to get one of these things?
No. And perhaps you should not. I am pretty critical of over-technologizing making, and focusing only on the “sexy” hightech stuff. Start a knitting club if that’s what your local makers want. But that said, it’s a pretty inexpensive and cool way to signal that the library is (and always has been) a tech-savvy place. For whatever it’s worth, I can pretty much guarantee that some sort of creative tools and space fits within your library’s mission (from my intensive research on mission statements.) And some people who have never come to your library before will come if you get one.

Any further questions? Check out my other FAQs, email me, or comment here. I also do workshops on all these tools and makerspaces in general, for libraries, systems, or classrooms.

a brief definition of library makerspaces

that has emerged from my research so far:

A public library makerspace is any participatory creative space that is open for the free use of all library patrons to interact with at will, irrespective of the types of workshops, tools, staffing, materials created, or location.

The users participate in these collaborative spaces to create anything they like, within the affordances of the space. The spaces may be “pop-up” makerspaces such as Madison’s Bubbler, contained within carts or shelves and spread on empty tables as needed; discrete, dedicated spaces such as Fayetteville’s Fab Lab; or even separate locations, such the Allen County library makerspace trailer in the library parking lot. The key points of this definition are: free, participatory, and creative. Everything else is a detail to be negotiated according to the needs of the community.

Air quality concern with 3D printers and libraries?

Someone just brought this to my attention (Thanks so much, R!), and I think it should be considered as a factor in libraries:

3D Printers May Be As Hazardous To Your Health As Cigarettes

The somewhat hysterical tone of the Huff Post article needs some parsing. First of all, I recommend the Printrbot Jr. for a variety of reasons, including:

  1. my own familiarity with it (disclaimer: I am not shilling for this company, though if they want to give me free stuff for my recommendation and many demos to librarians, I am not so ethical that I’d turn it down. Hint, hint, Brook Drumm.)
  2. you can easily build it yourself, even if you’re completely ignorant of electronics, if you can read and use a screwdriver.
  3. a pretty helpful community forum
  4. low price–get 3 printrbot jrs. instead of 1 makerbot, for nearly the same price!
  5. open source–some guys at Makerbot used freely-shared open source hardware and software, closed it off, and made a mint off of selling their business and their product, which I consider Not Playing Nicely With Others. I won’t give them my money, and their product isn’t that much better anyway (i.e. breaks down just as much as printrbot). To be fair, read their take on open source.
  6. small footprint–takes up less than 3 sq. feet of table
  7. easy to use. fairly easy to fix.
  8. it prints PLA, the fairly non-toxic biodegradable plastic that ever-so-faintly smells of burned sugar, and is less horrible for the environment than ABS plastic.

The study cited in the Post says that PLA printers release “about 20 billion particles per minute,” which is  “similar to cooking on a gas or electric stove.”

First of all, I’m guessing most of our patrons cook on stoves, or are around such cooking, as are staff. Secondly, most of us will be placing our printers in rooms much larger than the average kitchen, with huge quantities of air circulating through. Thirdly, the printers, according to both my own experience and interviews are NOT going to be used every second of every day after the first rush. Put those facts together, and I wouldn’t be more concerned about emissions from the printer than I am about the cooking classes at the library, at least for the health of people who don’t spend 8 hours a day next to the printer.

filterBut for staff who are around constant printing, or in tiny spaces? I guess this could be an issue. Probably not, but maybe. In this case, get a HEPA filter (don’t know about this particular model, though it looks nice), and print on.

If you’re printing with ABS, get a bigger filter. I am no environmental scientist, but this issue doesn’t look like a deal-breaker to me.

EDIT: Fantastic discussion of PLA and ABS filaments here.

Public library makerspaces

In one of my current studies I am interviewing library directors who have/have not considered adding a makerspace to their libraries. I am getting the most interesting quotes from all of these people–every one of the participants has been thoughtful and wonderful! So here’s a small sampling of what people are saying about why they are considering makerspaces:

I don’t think we’ll say that the mission of the library is to provide a creative space,  we won’t be that explicit…but I think instead it will be implied, saying the library is the space where creativity happens.

This next quote is from a participant who was one of the few in the study to have an active makerspace in the library, and he framed his concept of what the space offered in lush terms:

Magic is what the library needs to do…Neil Gaiman wrote something about this in libraries, if he could write something on the wall of every library …he would just, in the children’s section, write “And then what happened?” He was talking about that magic of the imagination and the spark. I think that having something material really makes it magic. It’s less like “Yeah, I’m imagining something,” and that’s great, but [more like] “I have this thing in my hand now that wasn’t there 20 minutes ago.”

The next person described not only an access model in which people could get access to knowledge, but also spoke to the idea  that the library, if not the people in the makerspace, would ensure that any interested party would have the materials they needed to create. The consumables of makerspaces were a worry to some participants–how would they charge, who should provide what, etc. is a common concern of makerspaces in libraries.

“If somebody were to come into our knitting group and say i don’t have any yarn or knitting needles, that person would have yarn and knitting needles”

Every one of the participants expressed this thought in one form another:

Makerspaces lure people who thought library was about books and didn’t have anything to offer them.

Librarians’ awareness of their image problem and the fact that some people really do think libraries are irrelevant book warehouses flavored the entire project. My findings in this study were about how librarians did/did not conceptualize makerspaces within an access or intellectual freedom framework, and the fundamental roles of libraries.

But the research also revealed some initial uncertainty on why the librarians were librarians, why they had particular roles, and so on. As the conversations progressed, the uncertainty was ironed out, and this was one of the most interesting developments–to listen to them think through their rationales. Like so:

As I talk to you, it seems to me that makerspaces are more outgoing, where you want other people, and you talk to one another. If you’re in technology you could be isolated so to speak but that wouldn’t bother you because in some ways technology can get us far afield but it is a loner type of operation….Anyone can go into a room and get on a computer…but the whole idea of when you get together is like with book discussions, you could read—and you probably are a heavy reader—but it’s that give and take that enriches what you are doing. The enrichment comes—and in makerspaces—because you’re sharing it with other people. With the digital labs, it’s that you’re doing something that’s high-tech, and you’re getting it out to people. But I think that interaction of people is stronger in a sense … in the makerspaces.

This quote reveals an understanding of digital media labs that may be less group-based or interactive in the act of creation than is the actual case, but these distinctions are important—makerspaces are perhaps more convivial spaces (to use Illich’s term in all its connotations) than digital media labs. Fascinating!

Every one of the participants (10 so far) have said that a makerspace concept aligns with the mission of the library as they understood both. I would LOVE to talk to people who disagree on this point, because I think they have valuable insight to add to the conversation. Know anyone?

Library Creativity Study

I’m seeking people who have used libraries to do something creative–as part of a program, in a makerspace or other creative space, or whatever. If you are interested, here are the details:

Have you ever:

  • Used a library makerspace or media lab equipment (like a 3D printer or video equipment)?
  • Participated in creative programs at any library (such as cooking or crafting)?
  • And are you 12 or older?
  • And willing to spend 1 or more hours furthering research?

This study involves participants audiorecording or writing a short history of their creative lives and how they have/have not intersected with libraries. All information is anonymized and participant identity kept entirely confidential.

This study looks at makerspaces and media labs in public libraries and how they might impact users.
Study by Principal Investigator Joyce Latham, PhD & Shannon Crawford Barniskis, doctoral student, UW Milwaukee School of Information Studies.
IRB# 13.332

Research PARTICIPANTs wanted creative spaces_revised

Contact me, Shannon, at crawfo55 at uwm dot edu if you’d like to be involved. I appreciate you even considering it!